Page 1 of 2 12>
Topic Options
#115946 - 2004-03-11 05:18 PM XML Support
jtokach Offline
Seasoned Scripter
*****

Registered: 2001-11-15
Posts: 513
Loc: PA, USA
Not sure if this is practical, but I'll throw it out there. With .XML becoming more and more prevalent, wouldn't it be nice to have functions to manipulate .XML files like the functions we have to manipulate .INI files?
_________________________
-Jim

...the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.

Top
#115947 - 2004-03-11 05:31 PM Re: XML Support
Kdyer Offline
KiX Supporter
*****

Registered: 2001-01-03
Posts: 6241
Loc: Tigard, OR
Isn't XML just text? Or, am I missing your point?

Kent
_________________________
Utilize these resources:
UDFs (Full List)
KiXtart FAQ & How to's

Top
#115948 - 2004-03-11 05:32 PM Re: XML Support
jtokach Offline
Seasoned Scripter
*****

Registered: 2001-11-15
Posts: 513
Loc: PA, USA
So are .INI's, but we have several functions dedicated to manipulating them. The concept is identical.
_________________________
-Jim

...the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.

Top
#115949 - 2004-03-11 05:40 PM Re: XML Support
Sealeopard Offline
KiX Master
*****

Registered: 2001-04-25
Posts: 11162
Loc: Boston, MA, USA
What's the problem with reading XML files? Functionality is already included in Kixtart via the COM interface. Just install the Microsoft XML Parser and read http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/xmlsdk30/htm/xmconxmldomuserguide.asp to get started.
_________________________
There are two types of vessels, submarines and targets.

Top
#115950 - 2004-03-11 05:45 PM Re: XML Support
jtokach Offline
Seasoned Scripter
*****

Registered: 2001-11-15
Posts: 513
Loc: PA, USA
Thanks for the tip. I'll look into it and use this for now. I would still like to see some basic support for this integrated though.
_________________________
-Jim

...the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.

Top
#115951 - 2004-03-11 07:11 PM Re: XML Support
Les Offline
KiX Master
*****

Registered: 2001-06-11
Posts: 12734
Loc: fortfrances.on.ca
I agree. If we wanted to use COM for everything we could do it with VBS. Built-ins is what sets us apart.
_________________________
Give a man a fish and he will be back for more. Slap him with a fish and he will go away forever.

Top
#115952 - 2004-04-03 06:12 AM Re: XML Support
cj Offline
MM club member
*****

Registered: 2000-04-06
Posts: 1102
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
But, building in EVERYTHING will just bloat the EXE with code that has to be carried around everywhere. The INI functions are just wrappers to API calls that AFAIK exist in Windows from 95 upwards. XML parsing would have to be either added directly for backwards support or contained in an external add-on which would be what we have right now anyway. I think KiXtarts power comes from it's small size and ability to use external add-ons.

my 2c, keep the change.

cj

Top
#115953 - 2004-04-05 05:16 PM Re: XML Support
jtokach Offline
Seasoned Scripter
*****

Registered: 2001-11-15
Posts: 513
Loc: PA, USA
I'm not disagreeing with the bloat factor. Assuming .XML could replace .INI files, the INI manipulation code in KiX could be deprecated and replaced with the more modern standard of .XML manipulation code. How else is KiX supposed to seperate itself from the pack and modernize itself without growing in size and functionality?
_________________________
-Jim

...the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.

Top
#115954 - 2004-04-05 05:53 PM Re: XML Support
Chris S. Offline
MM club member
*****

Registered: 2002-03-18
Posts: 2368
Loc: Earth
Quote:

How else is KiX supposed to seperate itself from the pack and modernize itself without growing in size and functionality?




...as far as XML support goes? I'd say by utilizing the COM functions that other scripting/programming languages use. I can't think of any languages that natively support XML now.

Here is an example of using the XMLDOM...

Code:

Break On

$xml = '
<remoteDir>
<dir>1394</dir>
<dir>backoffice</dir>
<dir>Clients</dir>
<dir>distapps</dir>
<dir>exchange</dir>
<dir>GEN_INFO</dir>
<dir>IIS</dir>
<dir>lanman</dir>
<dir>mail</dir>
<dir>mcis</dir>
<dir>mspress</dir>
<file>
<name>readme.txt</name>
<size>1715</size>
<lastModTime m="5" d="20" y="1996" hh="0" mm="0" ss="0" />
</file>
<file>
<name>ReadMe1.txt</name>
<size>2107</size>
<lastModTime m="7" d="2" y="2002" hh="0" mm="0" ss="0" />
</file>
<dir>sitesrv</dir>
<dir>sql</dir>
<dir>Sysmgrsrv</dir>
<dir>utilities</dir>
<dir>viper</dir>
<dir>winnt</dir>
<dir>WinSock</dir>
</remoteDir>'

$xmlDoc=CreateObject("Microsoft.XMLDOM")
$xmlDoc.async="false"

If $xmlDoc.loadXML($xml)
For Each $x in $xmlDoc.getElementsByTagName("dir")
$x.nodename + ": " + $x.text ?
Next
For Each $x in $xmlDoc.getElementsByTagName("file")
$x.nodename + ": " + $x.childNodes(0).text + " | " + $x.childNodes(1).text + " | " +
$x.childNodes(2).getAttribute("y")+"/"+$x.childNodes(2).getAttribute("m")+"/"+
$x.childNodes(2).getAttribute("d") ?
Next
EndIf



By the way, a very good online tutorial of XMLDOM can be found at W3Schools.

Top
#115955 - 2004-04-05 06:12 PM Re: XML Support
jtokach Offline
Seasoned Scripter
*****

Registered: 2001-11-15
Posts: 513
Loc: PA, USA
You just can't keep playing that card. "What seperates KiX from the pack?" The ability to call COM objects to handle every task (eehhmm VBScript) or the builtin functionality not found in other languages? It doesn't have to be support for .XML, but it has to be something.

And getting back to bloat; back in the days when we all using P100/16MB that argument was valid. Desktops are rolling off the line at +4GHz/1GB 64bit hyperthreaded blah blah blah. These boxes can consume a 1MB command line exe in the blink of an eye. The same goes for bandwidth. Practically all of our telecommuters are highspeed. This argument just doesn't hold water anymore.
_________________________
-Jim

...the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.

Top
#115956 - 2004-04-05 10:15 PM Re: XML Support
NTDOC Administrator Offline
Administrator
*****

Registered: 2000-07-28
Posts: 11574
Loc: CA
bandwidth alone I would disagree with you.

It may be nice and great that you work at a Company that can afford that speed, but there are many Companies around that can not.

Going bloatware should ALWAYS be on the minds of programmers. I gurantee you that if MS didn't have to put in a TON of code to make sure the average user didn't accidentally do something wrong in the OS, it would be much smaller and faster then it currently is. Much of the bloatware of Windows is to protect the user from him or herself.

That does not mean that I disagree with you on functionality improvements in KiX. If Ruud can add such and still keep the EXE a reasonable size, great.

Top
#115957 - 2004-04-05 10:39 PM Re: XML Support
jtokach Offline
Seasoned Scripter
*****

Registered: 2001-11-15
Posts: 513
Loc: PA, USA
In most cases the company doesn't pick up the cost for our user's highspeed home ISP connections. Still, we haven't changed our practices, we run KiX locally from the workstation so back to the original statement that a larger .EXE would have little impact on a fast computer.

I think we all agree that we want improvements at little cost to performance. I see .XML support as a direct replacement for older technology.
_________________________
-Jim

...the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.

Top
#115958 - 2004-04-06 10:31 AM Re: XML Support
Richard H. Administrator Offline
Administrator
*****

Registered: 2000-01-24
Posts: 4945
Loc: Leatherhead, Surrey, UK
More importantly on this and similar issues is where it makes sense for the support of things like XML to be.

As you quite rightly pointed out, KiXtart can interface with COM automation quite successfully with a couple of notable exceptions.

This has two major benefits. Firstly, there only needs to be one implementation for the support of a feature.

If you take XML as an example, would you expect the coders of Word, Excel, Internet Explorer and so-on to write their own XML parsers and handlers? Of course not, it would be mad. Instead a library is developed, the API is published and any application which needs XML parsing uses the library.

The second major benefit of doing this ways is about who maintains the code. Is it really a good idea for Ruud to have to add massive complexity to KiXtart for something which is at present of limited need just to make the interface simpler? Something that he may well not have expert knowledge in.

No. It is much better for the XML experts to maintain, bug-fix and enhance the XML support libraries.

Ruuds time is better spent developing the core of KiXtart and adding features which enhance the scripting language, rather than adding functionality which is already available.

As a guide, I usually review enhancement requests and fit them into loose categories:
  • Very Good This is something which would benefit most people, but more importantly is it something which can only be achieved by a change in the scripting language. Some examples are static variables, pass by reference, input/output redirection and support for binary data.
  • Good Again, most people would benefit. These are requests which would provide support for facilities which can already be handled by UDFs and COM but should probably be part of the core language. Things like mathematical functions, date handling, pattern matching, associative (hash) arrays.
  • Not so good This category is for those things which don't really belong in KiXtart. It may be because they are so esoteric that very few people will use the feature. More often it is because the feature is available by another method such as via the COM automation and it is appropriate for it to remain that way. Examples of this are network (socket) programming, HTTP, Email, database and LDAP.


Not everyone will agree with me, but I think that XML support sits quite firmly in the last category.

Top
#115959 - 2004-04-06 04:45 PM Re: XML Support
jtokach Offline
Seasoned Scripter
*****

Registered: 2001-11-15
Posts: 513
Loc: PA, USA
Richard, what you say makes great sense and couldn't agree with you more. Where we disagree is with the categorization of extended functionality such as XML. And quite honestly I think the community takes this Suggestions forum far too seriously, such as to assume that every suggestion should be included in the next release. XML is growing in popularity at an immense rate. By making the suggestion that this should be included, Iím suggestion it would be nice to see it in the future; preferably within a year.

Given the way you designated XML support to be non-value added would be stating that Ruudís decision to include support for .INI parsing was also non-value added and more of a nicety. Personally, I can remember times where not having such functionality would have made my life a whole lot more difficult and Iím certain that Iím not alone here.

If KiXtart is a tool designed for administrators, (read: not programmers) and its development path remains focused on that philosophy, and XML will replace the current methods in which applications operate, would it not make better sense to have native support for this built into the language so the administrator can quickly accomplish his task? Weíre talking about minutes of referencing the manual as opposed to a few hours deciphering the COM interface.

And finally, regarding Ruudís time, I agree with you. Iíd much rather have a completely working COM interface than support for .XML right now. I merely came to offer a suggestion.
_________________________
-Jim

...the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.

Top
#115960 - 2004-04-06 05:40 PM Re: XML Support
Richard H. Administrator Offline
Administrator
*****

Registered: 2000-01-24
Posts: 4945
Loc: Leatherhead, Surrey, UK
Without delving into ancient history INI support is an early feature when KiXtart was a simple login scripting language.

COM automation has developed in later version of KiXtart as it has progressed - it wasn't available in early versions.

It is not that XML support has no value per se, it is simply that building XML support into KiXtart has little added value at the expense of making KiXtart bigger, slower and more difficult to maintain. IMO simply adding API wrappers to KiXtart is just not a very good reason.

Suggestions here get debated by the community and distilled to something which is in a form that can be put forward to Ruud. This peer review process is vital to ensure that the request is beneficial to the community as a whole and is at it's clearest and most concise - the more noise there is around a suggestion the more likely it is to be heard


Top
#115961 - 2004-04-06 05:51 PM Re: XML Support
jtokach Offline
Seasoned Scripter
*****

Registered: 2001-11-15
Posts: 513
Loc: PA, USA
My wife says I'm pretty noisy. =)

All things considered, I still feel this addition will become worthy as XML grows in popularity and administrators demand simpler methods to maintain them. Think visionary.

Ruud, if you build it they will come.
_________________________
-Jim

...the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament.

Top
#115962 - 2004-04-07 08:29 PM Re: XML Support
Lonkero Administrator Offline
KiX Master Guru
*****

Registered: 2001-06-05
Posts: 22342
Loc: OK
now...
who needs XML anyways?
it's not really needed anywhere and is used just for the hype of it.
the same sillyness that drives tele-communication companies to third generation mobile-networks.
why don't ppl learn.
and to take more precise example, I take java.
nobody really needs that bloody language but for the hype of it, it is teached everywhere!
_________________________
!

download KiXnet

Top
#115963 - 2004-09-27 07:13 AM Re: XML Support
Jose Offline
Seasoned Scripter
*****

Registered: 2001-04-04
Posts: 693
Loc: Buenos Aires - Argentina
I agree with jtokach about the XML new standard, in my opinion Kixtart should read and write XML easily without COM just like ini files.

By now I will use XMLDOM.
_________________________
Life is fine.

Top
#115964 - 2004-09-28 03:39 AM Re: XML Support
cj Offline
MM club member
*****

Registered: 2000-04-06
Posts: 1102
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
hehe, now here's a can of worms we should re-open

cj

p.s. ooh, only 9 more posts to the ton!

Top
#115965 - 2004-09-28 03:53 AM Re: XML Support
Sealeopard Offline
KiX Master
*****

Registered: 2001-04-25
Posts: 11162
Loc: Boston, MA, USA
I don't know why everybody is so obsessed with XML files. They're essentially the noisy decendant of COBOL copybooks.

If i'd have to deal with XML versions of the flat files I'm dealing with right now I'd have to read 10GB XML files instead of 1GB flat fixed-length files.
_________________________
There are two types of vessels, submarines and targets.

Top
Page 1 of 2 12>


Moderator:  Lonkero, ShaneEP, Jochen, Radimus, Glenn Barnas, Allen, Mart 
Hop to:
Shout Box

Who's Online
1 registered (Allen) and 49 anonymous users online.
Newest Members
ROBECCO80, TsuyoiSaigai, a5tr0, FoolZero, DaveE
17657 Registered Users

Generated in 0.043 seconds in which 0.012 seconds were spent on a total of 13 queries. Zlib compression enabled.

Search the board with:
superb Board Search
or try with google:
Google
Web kixtart.org