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#98985 - 2003-03-02 06:51 PM What about health?
Jose Offline
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There´s no limit for learning and working but there is a limit as human beings...harm.
We really dont know how bad is to be exposed to the computer the amount of hours that people do....or do we?

The eyes get dry and red the skin gets wrinkle the hair falls. The neck and backbone looses strength and cause pain. The right arm a little up due to mouse. The legs suffer preasure.
Am I forgeting somnething?
Is the profit-health scale moving somewhere?

I guess Sunday was the day for this weird post.
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#98986 - 2003-03-02 06:56 PM Re: What about health?
Sealeopard Offline
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Definitely a weird post.

However, there are European guidelines for computer workplace ergonomics which try to reduce potential health effects. They specify dimensions of a computer workplace, lightning sources and brighness, amount of time to be spent in front of a monitor before another task should be performed, and so on.

In Germany, the guideline is called 'Bildschirmarbeitsplatzverordnung' and most companies are required by law to follow it. AFAIK, the US do not have anything as comprehensive as the European guidelines, though OSHA has some stuff about this, too.

[ 02. March 2003, 19:04: Message edited by: sealeopard ]
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#98987 - 2003-03-02 07:02 PM Re: What about health?
Shawn Administrator Offline
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Strange but soooo true. Thanks for the wake-up call Jose !
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#98988 - 2003-03-02 07:12 PM Re: What about health?
Jose Offline
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Taboo subject aint boys? [Wink] ....Of course we souldiers know our weaponds for defense.
I once tried to implement this stuff sealeopard mentions at work i got it from a Compaq manual but of course none of the furniture was accurate for it....and people are not dummies they move.
I dont see a lot of science development in this issue in order to be healthy you have to be consentrated on the way you are sitted rather than on what you are doing.

I also wear glasses and eventually drops.
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#98989 - 2003-03-02 07:17 PM Re: What about health?
Sealeopard Offline
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Actually, I've been involved in quantifying the effects of ergonomically-designed mice on the user. We tried to see whether a user with an ergonomically-designed mouse/keyboard fatigues slower than a user with a regular mouse/keyboard. What we esentially found was that a correctly user ergonomically mouse/keyboard is effective in reducing fatigue. This was part of a larger study looking at RSI (Repetitive Strain Injury, a common workplace injury nowadays).

So, yes, there's research being done, as the healthcare-related costs are increasing.
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#98990 - 2003-03-02 07:30 PM Re: What about health?
Jose Offline
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You are right sealeopard we dont have to blaim science and I also have expierence on trying to develop benefits to user products due to Industrial Design study but in the end i dont see close solution on the global population I think the blow was so strong that solutions are still waiting.
A couple years we might have our instruments incorpoder to our clothes.
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#98991 - 2003-03-08 03:56 AM Re: What about health?
Jose Offline
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As weekend comes I can bring the subjetc back ja!

I forgot mentioning the amount of hours we all spend in front of the beautifull box without sleeping.
[Wink]

Dont be cruel to a heart thats true. [Big Grin]

[ 08. March 2003, 04:04: Message edited by: jose3 ]
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#98992 - 2003-03-08 04:59 AM Re: What about health?
MCA Offline
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Loc: Netherlands, EU
Dear Jose,

We agree with Jens vision. In the past when we had only living mouses it wasn't a
big discussion. Also typistes doesn't complain about it even when they required
a 'hammer' to get something on their papers.

In our opinion a lot of (company) software requires too much movements of their
arms. First they must f.e. enter a very small amount of characters and before
entering the next field they must use the mouse and they must repeat this in a
very frequent way.

Another point Jens wasn't mention are the monitor settings. Research learns
that cyan forground and black background color or a simular combination is must
healthier that the most popular combination of black forground and white background.
You can see this latest combination as looking in a light.

Another point with the past is, that currently the amount of heavy work has replace
with more office work. Also the productivity is much higher, than in the past. Now
people are working mostly too long in succession without any rest.

But is the productivity in some situation much higher than in the past. Simply
a short meeting works much better, than using mail. Who doesn't know people on
an office who aren't talking to each other even when they are sitting opposite
each other. They prefer their mail.
Also the amount of papers to read is now much higher, than in the past. Simply
some small changes generates in the eye of author a new documentation, which is
very important to read.

Other health impact are, that you are sitting mostly in the same position.
Why:
- you can read any information on your computer. how much guys are reading a book in a relaxed seat.
- you can do shopping by your computer and they can take the shopping home for you.
- you can use fast food by f.e. microwave. why? to prevent leaving your computer too long.
- you can view television on your computer screen. in the past for entertaiment you was going to town.
- your social life goes by computer (mail, chat).
- you can play a game on your computer for some relaxation. in the past you were playing something
like Monopoly or Risk with friends in the living room andyou did this also the whole night.
- you can become very angry, when you stumble in a file. what was a file twenty years ago?
greetings.
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#98993 - 2004-02-13 01:20 AM Re: What about health?
Jose Offline
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I love computers. I learn, work, enjoy, discover, communicate and lots of stuff too but they way we are treated by them is what I am against. It is a personal everyday struggle not to be all day behind a screen, is there a way out of this?

Soon is gonna be one year of this post and by now I havent seen any changes about the way I or "we" go ahead with our sedentary life. I am still thinking that life is cooler than computers.
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#98994 - 2004-02-13 01:44 AM Re: What about health?
Lonkero Administrator Offline
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didn't catch this the first time and wasn't gonna see it unless you had pointed it out to me personally.
j0C, my brotha, you have a point.

but, to fight for life, isn't it useless.
you know, we all gonna die!
or what?
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#98995 - 2004-02-13 01:58 AM Re: What about health?
Les Offline
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It's not the dying part that bothers me. After all, when you're dead, you're dead. It is the RSI that can keep me from enjoying what I do for a living. I was suffering from RSI this past year so I did go out and buy a couple of more ergonomic mice. I needed to buy two; one was the M$ wireless (USB) which is the larger of the two and the other, a wired (PS2) so that I could use it thru my KVM. I've also been using my laptop undocked lots so get respite using the touchpad and chicklet kbd. Combine that with some B vitamins and ASA, and as you see, I am still going.
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#98996 - 2004-02-13 02:40 PM Re: What about health?
Co Offline
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Good point Jose,

In '99 I was working on a Y2K solution. The company which hires me discovered it late '99 so there was a lot of pressure to clear the job before 31/12... It was finished at 31/12 but one week earlier one of my co-workers had to take over my job because I had to stop working. There was a lot of pain in my neck, shoulders and both of my arms.
I couldn't drink a cup of coffee because the cup was too heavy, I couldn't drive a car... I could but my arms had to lean on my legs... It took me 3 months to start working again for 4 hours a day and 6 months to start working fulltime again..

I still have pain but it is +/- 10% of what I had in 1999/2000.

Part of the problem was:

No ergonomic workplace
stress because of the deadline
no micropauzes
etc
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#98997 - 2004-02-13 02:50 PM Re: What about health?
Co Offline
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I don't use a mouse anymore. Since 99 I use a Microsoft Trackball which works great.... And co-workers don't use my pc anymore because they can't work with it

Les, part of the European guidelines for computer workplace ergonomics Jens was talking about is you may not use a laptop longer than 2 hours. you may use it 4 hours like a desktop if you use a loose keyboard, mouse and monitor....


Edited by Co (2004-02-13 02:54 PM)
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#98998 - 2004-02-13 02:53 PM Re: What about health?
Lonkero Administrator Offline
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weird, I use it for about 20 hours a day... for about 2,5 years now.
I must be really sick
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#98999 - 2004-02-13 02:55 PM Re: What about health?
Co Offline
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Well, I always thought you are.. Aren't you??
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#99000 - 2004-02-13 03:03 PM Re: What about health?
Les Offline
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When in my office, I dock the laptop and use a standard kbd and ergo mouse thru the KVM. At home and on the road, I use the chicklet kbd and touchpad. When at other sites, I use the chicklet kbd and ergo USB mouse.
I find the change to be almost as good as a rest, but still can only tolerate a conventional mouse for a few minutes.
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#99001 - 2004-02-13 03:19 PM Re: What about health?
Co Offline
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http://www.tno.nl/en/news/tno_magazine/june_2001/em2_14_16.html
http://www.io.tudelft.nl/rsi/eng_content_5.php
http://www.nycosh.org/linktopics/ergonomics.html

I did a Reintegration trainingprogram in 2000 which reduces step by step the pain so I could back to work after 3 months (parttime) and fulltime after 6 months. Unfortunately websites about Reintegration programs are only in Dutch

For those who can read Dutch: http://www.degezondezaak.nl/


Edited by Co (2004-02-13 03:37 PM)
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#99002 - 2004-02-13 03:23 PM Re: What about health?
Co Offline
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Quote:

but still can only tolerate a conventional mouse for a few minutes.





I have the same problem... And using it together with Excel it is like Hell.. my arms are cold and my neck and shoulders burns. But when i use the trackball there is no problem.
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#99003 - 2004-02-13 04:06 PM Re: What about health?
Lonkero Administrator Offline
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well.
real men don't click anyways.

have used computer for long periods without mouse just fine.
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#99004 - 2004-02-13 04:14 PM Re: What about health?
Co Offline
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I know a lot of keycombinations but sometimes you have to...
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