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#208598 - 2014-02-18 02:55 AM Exchange Alternative
NTDOC NTDOC Administrator Registered: 2000-07-28 Posts: 11628 Loc: CA	Has anyone seriously looked at an alternative to Microsoft Exchange? Paying these CAL licensing requirements over and over for new Exchange versions when they come out is crazy. 2003 CALS are not valid for 2007, 2007 are not valid for 2010, 2010 are not valid for 2013 - Then you also have Server CALS that are required. I'm a Windows geek like most of us but starting to get cranky about all these update costs to the point I'm seriously starting to look into something else. Not seeing anything that is 100% free that comes anywhere close to Exchange. One or two that are similar to Exchange but not cheap either. If it was a one time cost and a reasonable yearly support cost maybe but would really like to get away from the $10 - $20K + CALS for Exchange every time you want to update the Server. Zarafa http://www.zarafa.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarafa_%28software%29 Price is actually not very competitive compared to Exchange Licensing for 500 users has a yearly cost of about $14,000 (Microsoft CALS for 500 users is only about $8,500, and cost of Enterprise for $2,100 or more if you scale up with DAG) Zarafa needs Cluster aware Linux to scale up, which at that level unless you're a real die-hard Linux person is probably best done with RedHat which also has yearly costs. I just don't see the cost savings to go from Microsoft to Linux/Zarafa (should either be an extensive costs savings or extensive better software offering - neither of which appear to be there) ClearOS Professional (Not sure it really scales up or is close to Exchange as most replies are from Home users or Tech not using the mail) http://ns2.centralpointe.com/index.php http://ns2.centralpointe.com/Software/clearos-professional-overview.html No real business replies where someone is using the email and calendaring portion of the system http://community.spiceworks.com/product/49729-clear-foundation-clearos?source=Selector_73 Possibly this one might be one of the better offerings but still not sure. http://www.sogo.nu/english.html Even this one if it it's not a yearly renewal fee - one time cost is okay and reasonable yearly support cost but if they want client renewals each year then it too is a useless switch much like Zarafa as I view it. http://www.icewarp.com/migration/exchange/
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#208599 - 2014-02-18 09:21 AM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: NTDOC]
Arend_ Arend_ MM club member Registered: 2005-01-17 Posts: 1896 Loc: Hilversum, The Netherlands	I've temporarily looked at Zimbra but haven't really had the time to dive into it yet, but it's VMware backed so that should count for something.
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#208600 - 2014-02-18 02:42 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Arend_]
Allen Allen KiX Supporter Registered: 2003-04-19 Posts: 4562 Loc: USA	Coming from experience switching folks from Exchange to Google Apps... be careful what you ask for. I had a number of customers running Small Business Servers that had Exchange 2003 on them. With support running out, the need for better spam protection, amongst other things, we were deciding whether to upgrade Exchange or move to Google Apps, which at the time was free for customers under 50 accounts. I've also setup a few Google Apps accounts for users who have never had Exchange. Their experiences couldn't be any more different. The migrated Exchange users for the most part were very unhappy. Scheduling, Calendars, Synching were big examples of things that worked completely different and or were missing. Outlook played a big part in this, as it is completely integrated with Exchange. Google Apps... well not so much. They make things work with Outlook, but as example, setting your Vacation Reminder requires a visit to the website rather than a simple setting in Outlook. The users who never had Exchange, couldn't have been happier. It's all they knew. They had access to things like shared calendars, albeit not in Outlook, but at least they had it. I realize you are not talking about moving to Google Apps, and I have not looked at any of the solutions you linked to above. I just know you could be going down a road of pain and heartbreak. Your users could very well hate whatever choice you make because they have already had Exchange. Have you considered Microsoft's hosted Exchange / Office 365? I have no idea what the price difference would be for your situation, but for small offices, it's a near no brainer. Setup was very quick and easy. I have set it up for one of my smaller customers (as a live beta $\:\)$ ) , and have to say it works great.
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#208601 - 2014-02-18 06:30 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Allen]
Robdutoit Robdutoit Hey THIS is FUN Registered: 2012-03-27 Posts: 363 Loc: London, England	Don't go with Google Aps. Think NSA Mass surveillance! Think, Google update = breaks everything else on the system (its happened before, so it will happen again), think costs (cheap now, but eventually Google will become just too expensive to use) and then think Google only proprietary formats judging by the trend of Microsoft, Apple, Google et al lately to lock you into their little system. No I would not touch google Apps with a barge pole! And don't get me started on the pos called Google Plus - although nothing to do with this discussion. I can't advise on a solution for you Doc as I don't really deal with that scale of clients. If I was looking at something like that I would like at Linux Mail server to provide the mail services and mail gateway functions like spam filtering, virus etc and I would use a webcalendar website to handle the shared calendars. Although the webcalendar is a bit limited in comparison to what Exchange can do. But it depends on what your organisation's requirements are. You can get the webcalendar to do a surprising amount of stuff and it really works well with a variety of platforms such as Ipads, Outlook (read only) and so on. That's just my twopence!
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#208602 - 2014-02-18 07:00 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Robdutoit]
NTDOC NTDOC Administrator Registered: 2000-07-28 Posts: 11628 Loc: CA	I too am not a fan of anything Google. Way too big and has the problem most big companies have in that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. No means to have direct phone support contact that I'm aware of. Reports in the past where they've "accidentally" indexed your personal computer into their online database (yeah, right - accident). Anyways... as said this is off-topic and nothing at all what I'm looking to do. Office 365 only moves some (not all) of the daily management to the Cloud. I really have to ask what for? I can already install, manage, backup the data and have 100% full control (you do not have 100% control in the Cloud). The costs are not broken down into Server and CAL but the bottom line is the per user cost includes those fees. Then you're shifting dollars spent inside to outside but you're really not saving all that much money but you are adding another layer of non-control to the mix. There is certainly a market for the Cloud and I'm sure some companies that don't run an internal IT or a very small one might benefit from it, but its not to simply move your inside IT to the outside where you now have very limited sight and control compared to owning and running it internally. At that point why not just outsource the whole thing including your job and be done with it. But again you're simply shifting dollars from one pot to another pot. Use the Cloud where it makes sense for your companies needs. Bottom line for me is I'm tired of spending huge amounts of cash every time I turn around. Maybe there is no easier/better/cheaper way and I'm stuck on this wheel with Microsoft and Exchange but spending well in excess of $100K in a 5 year period simply for "rights" to use the software is a bitter pill to swallow. Regardless of which route taken I'm sure it's a lot of work. Was just curious if anyone had either taken the step or done a fair amount of research and testing in this area. Thanks everyone
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#208603 - 2014-02-18 08:22 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: NTDOC]
Robdutoit Robdutoit Hey THIS is FUN Registered: 2012-03-27 Posts: 363 Loc: London, England	I agree, I would not touch Office 365 with a barge pole for the exact reasons that you mention - loss of control and you still spending pretty much the same amount of money anyway. I think to answer your question you need to provide us with details. How many users in the organisation, will they access only email and one shared calendar etc etc? In other words what are your organisations requirements. Most people turn their nose up at Thunderbird but I have to be honest as a mail client it has served me very well for years and I have the ability to VIEW AND EDIT my online calendar within thunderbird. I will be honest and say I have never like Outlook as it is overly complicated for most people's needs. Why don't you look into Thunderbird as the mail client, an online webcalendar program to put on each client's website and then ask around for a linux solution for a mail server. I am a big fan of Microsoft in terms of Microsoft Windows Servers and Windows 7 Pro clients, but I see no value in Microsoft in the exchange/outlook scenario as it does not provide value for money. Linux is what they had in mind for things like mail servers, websites, proxy servers, caching servers etc. I use Slackware as my preferred Linux distro, but you may find something more standard like Redhat that would suit you. In short, it might pay you to build a solution that works for you. You may have to integrate different technologies to achieve your desired result but it could end up being very worthwhile.
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#208604 - 2014-02-19 11:17 AM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Robdutoit]
NTDOC NTDOC Administrator Registered: 2000-07-28 Posts: 11628 Loc: CA	The Outlook client is not the issue. Once purchased you can continue to use it for 10 years if you like with no further licensing or other costs. It's the Exchange server itself that legally requires the CALS for every new version of Exchange. As far as Microsoft Server vs Linux Server for mail well back in the day it was Linux but Exchange has pretty much taken over that market now for a long time and handles the job just fine (again I'm only dissatisfied with costs, not the product). Providing further details probably has little bearing as well as most companies use Exchange very similar. Yes sharing of calendars, forwarding to multiple contacts, different scenarios for delay or redirecting mail, public folders, etc. If someone has actually made the switch then they would be familiar with what worked for them and what product they settled on. To answer your question though - current user base at 500 with email accounts. About another 300 accounts without email. About 50 accounts that have mail enabled contacts but not a mailbox. Business is growing and these repetitive costs are quite a drain. Money spent over and over on licensing could be used on other projects if it was made available. But so far not sure - if no one has done it that's okay. I will probably at least dive in and take a look and see what I come up with. Just have to find some time to do it....
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#208605 - 2014-02-19 03:07 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: NTDOC]
Lonkero Lonkero KiX Master Guru Registered: 2001-06-05 Posts: 22346 Loc: OK	Originally Posted By: NTDOC The Outlook client is not the issue. Once purchased you can continue to use it for 10 years if you like with no further licensing or other costs. It's the Exchange server itself that legally requires the CALS for every new version of Exchange. eh. upgrading your outlook brings costs, as afaik the outlook is not anymore bundled with exchange. so, the logic is the same. now the actual question you should be asking, why would you keep upgrading to the latest and greatest every time they release one? you can keep using the version you bought for ten years. this 100k/5y is self inflicted cost and I think you should be asking why YOU are making it. _________________________ ! download KiXnet
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#208606 - 2014-02-19 08:08 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Lonkero]
NTDOC NTDOC Administrator Registered: 2000-07-28 Posts: 11628 Loc: CA	Thanks for the input. Was hoping that with almost 15 years of being here on this site I could get a bit more input than "it's your fault". Very helpful indeed.
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#208607 - 2014-02-19 09:30 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: NTDOC]
Lonkero Lonkero KiX Master Guru Registered: 2001-06-05 Posts: 22346 Loc: OK	it actually is extremely helpful as your logic is flawed. You are complaining about a cost that you are in control over. the cost would never occur without your actions. _________________________ ! download KiXnet
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#208608 - 2014-02-19 10:24 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Lonkero]
Arend_ Arend_ MM club member Registered: 2005-01-17 Posts: 1896 Loc: Hilversum, The Netherlands	Doc, just take a look at this from my last time research this is the most viable alternative to Exchange. If I have some spare time I'll try to set one up and let you know how it works, set you up with an account etc.
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#208624 - 2014-02-26 04:14 AM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Arend_]
BradV BradV Seasoned Scripter Registered: 2006-08-16 Posts: 687 Loc: Maryland, USA	I did a quick search and found this web page. Linux is really not that hard to set up and manage. CentOS is derived from RHEL. So, you can use it for free. The Citadel software looks promising.
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#208626 - 2014-02-26 10:41 AM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: BradV]
NTDOC NTDOC Administrator Registered: 2000-07-28 Posts: 11628 Loc: CA	Thanks Brad, yes I've seen this page. I was certified in Unix about 15 years ago (but have not done much with it since as I was making a living supporting Windows) Currently having some other project work keeping me busy but hopefully a bit later this year I can free up some time to actually investigate. Listening to their podcast it doesn't sound like its really for Enterprise use though but worth at least looking into further. Cheers
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#209485 - 2014-10-04 03:32 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: NTDOC]
Robdutoit Robdutoit Hey THIS is FUN Registered: 2012-03-27 Posts: 363 Loc: London, England	Hey Doc, I have also had to look into this matter. We currently don't have any type of Exchange environment and I am not keen on Exchange because of cost and difficulty. For small clients its not worth it. I have found this product, which I am going to trial and I will let you know how it works. It may actually be just what you were looking for if you have not found anything yet. I quite like the product from what I have read. If you have looked at it and dismissed this product as an option, I would be interested in hearing why. http://www.altn.com/Products/ Ta Rob
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#209486 - 2014-10-04 03:49 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Robdutoit]
Lonkero Lonkero KiX Master Guru Registered: 2001-06-05 Posts: 22346 Loc: OK	Surely exchange for small clients isn't more expensive than it used to be. Which was pretty much free. Now, I have to admit that I haven't got to touch a single exchange server in 3 years so I am slowly loosing my touch on everything exchange _________________________ ! download KiXnet
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#209487 - 2014-10-04 04:02 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Lonkero]
Robdutoit Robdutoit Hey THIS is FUN Registered: 2012-03-27 Posts: 363 Loc: London, England	For me, what puts me off exchange is the silly licensing scheme. You have to get Server Cals and client Cals which have to be updated if you change your Office version - like I don't have anything better to do with my time lol. I was referring more to the difficulty of exchange for small clients. Its a bit overkill for clients who only have two servers. I also don't want exchange to tie me into just outlook. This product I mentioned supports phones, ipads, thunderbird and outlook as well as web. A winner for me all round.
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#209488 - 2014-10-04 04:21 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Robdutoit]
Allen Allen KiX Supporter Registered: 2003-04-19 Posts: 4562 Loc: USA	For small businesses Office 365 is the way to go. $60 per person / per year is a no-brainer. It works great, is accessible from any device, and from my experience very quick to have up and running. I can't get my customers transferred over to this fast enough.
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#209489 - 2014-10-04 05:42 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Allen]
Robdutoit Robdutoit Hey THIS is FUN Registered: 2012-03-27 Posts: 363 Loc: London, England	I am sure that Office 365 works brilliantly, but I prefer solutions where I have control over the product and I can upgrade when I want to not when Google or Microsoft decide to upgrade me. Also not to sound paranoid, but especially since the NSA Mass surveillance, I am not keen on cloud based products especially email. I am sure Office 365 works brilliantly, but I prefer in house solutions. I like what I see with this Mdaemon Messaging Server.
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#209490 - 2014-10-04 07:37 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Robdutoit]
Lonkero Lonkero KiX Master Guru Registered: 2001-06-05 Posts: 22346 Loc: OK	Why wouldn't exchange work with anything but outlook? It's the opposite. It works the same with other apps but also is the only platform with true outlook support. _________________________ ! download KiXnet
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#209491 - 2014-10-04 07:39 PM Re: Exchange Alternative [Re: Lonkero]
Lonkero Lonkero KiX Master Guru Registered: 2001-06-05 Posts: 22346 Loc: OK	And if you care about privacy, go and setup a open source server. On that side you can update and fix on your own schedule as well $\:\)$ _________________________ ! download KiXnet
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