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#188319 - 2008-06-22 10:15 AM Future of KiXtart?
thesummer Offline
Just in Town

Registered: 2005-07-18
Posts: 4
Hello,

many of our customers asked me about the future of KiX. Specially about support for Windows Server 2008. They want to know if it is still state of the art to use KiX as logon processor for the doamin and for terminalserver environments.

So please can we get some informations about next majors release to come?

Many thanks,

Lars

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#188320 - 2008-06-22 01:21 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: thesummer]
Glenn Barnas Administrator Offline
KiX Supporter
*****

Registered: 2003-01-28
Posts: 4396
Loc: New Jersey
I just completed the rebuild of my home lab to Windows 2008 - mostly 64-bit. There are 9 W2K8-64b, 3 W2K8-32b, and 4 W2K3-32b servers. Workstations are a mix of 32b and 64b Vista, and two XP laptops.

I've encountered no issues with Kix to date. The login script ran without modification, as did my log maintenance script, WSUS manager/installer, and most other scripts in my arsenal. I did have to re-code a few, especially those that used the registry (WOW mode), but this was for 64b support and had nothing to do with W2K8. My backup script is the only casualty, and that's due to the fact that NTBackup is no longer included with W2K8.

The biggest change I've seen so far is that W2K8 has a local firwall enabled by default. Installing supported roles automatically adjusts the firewall settings, but if you install a 3rd party app, or use script to access previously available facilities, you might need to adjust the firewall settings manually.

Bottom line - I've found virtually no issues with Kix on Windows 2008 that couldn't be resolved by minor tweaks to either the OS or your code. Again, most of the code issues I've seen were reated to 64-bit Windows folder and registry access, which are handled natively in Kix (if you actually enable the SetOption values!).

Glenn
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#191570 - 2009-01-03 11:19 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Glenn Barnas]
Skatterbrainz Offline
Starting to like KiXtart

Registered: 2002-10-17
Posts: 172
Loc: Virginia, USA
I would agree with Glenn. My home network is WS08 and all Vista clients and every Kix script I have in my library from back to WS2K and WS03 works just fine. I'm sure it depends on how you use Kix and which particular commands or functions you use and so forth, but in general it works fine. I would just recommend testing it yourself to see how it works. It's not like Kix is "old" or becoming obsolete. It's very mature and stable and widely used by a great many people around the world.
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silence is golden, but duct tape is silver

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#198634 - 2010-05-17 02:43 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Skatterbrainz]
Aittersu Offline
Just in Town

Registered: 2010-05-17
Posts: 1
Loc: The Netherlands
Hello,

I am using kix for a long period now, and the next project i want to use it for is the deployment of Windos 7.

We made a WinPE 3.0 boot cd, one for 32 and one for 64 bits deployment.

32 bits works fine, howeven, we encounter a problem with kix32 on the 64 bits WinPE cd.
The error is: The subsystem needed to support the image type is not present.

Has anyone encountered this before and is there possibly a solution for this matter?

Kind regards

Aittersu

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#198638 - 2010-05-17 04:36 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Aittersu]
eriqjaffe Offline
Hey THIS is FUN

Registered: 2004-06-24
Posts: 214
Loc: Arlington Heights, IL USA
 Originally Posted By: Aittersu
Hello,

I am using kix for a long period now, and the next project i want to use it for is the deployment of Windos 7.

We made a WinPE 3.0 boot cd, one for 32 and one for 64 bits deployment.

32 bits works fine, howeven, we encounter a problem with kix32 on the 64 bits WinPE cd.
The error is: The subsystem needed to support the image type is not present.

Has anyone encountered this before and is there possibly a solution for this matter?

Kind regards

Aittersu


I've run into this exact scneario before, in fact. Unfortunately, the simple answer is that no 32-bit applications will work in an x64 WinPE environment - the WOW64 subsystem simply isn't part of the x64 version, and that's required for 32-bit compatibility.

Unless KiXtart (and KiXforms, depending on what you're doing) gets compiled for 64-bit, you're out of luck.

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#201206 - 2010-12-17 06:39 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: eriqjaffe]
sixdoubleo Offline
Starting to like KiXtart

Registered: 2004-02-06
Posts: 118
Loc: California, US
Just bumping this thread to get thoughts of others... Ive been scripting in Kix since about 1999. It started like many as simple logon scripts, but eventually became much more. Just about every administrative function in our enterprise (1600 desktops, 85 servers, 5 sites) has some custom kix script or system managing it. I don't use Kix because it's the only thing I know and am unwilling to use something else...I actually know and use VBScript, Powershell, AutoIt, and also VB.NET. I use Kix because nothing else can do what it does.

I just recently revamped our startup/logon and software distribution scripts (all written in Kix) to work with our latest Windows 7 deployment. Everything works great.

However, moving forward I'm somewhat reluctant to use Kix for upcoming projects because I simply cannot predict the future of Kix. Yes it works now, but once we get to pure 64-bit environments (such as WinPE) we're going to have problems. Furthermore, in larger enterprises we have to think about supportability by other admins.

For instance, I just rewrote our WSUS management scripts for Server 2008 R2 and I decided to do it in VBScript. Would Kix work BETTER? No question about it. But because this thing needs to be supportable moving forward, by somebody other than me, I just felt that I needed to use a language that I know will be around...one that people can find training in.

I'm also doing a new AD user request/creation system where down-level IT staff can request new users through a a GUI, which drops a request file on a server, and then a backend process picks that up, creates the user(s), mailbox, home directories, profiles, provisions groups and emails the requester when it's done. Naturally I'd want to do that in KixForms and Kix. But again, with an unknown future, I decided to use an HTA front end with a Powershell processing script scheduled on the server.

I'm finding that with most of my upcoming scripting efforts, I'm looking to powershell first, then VBScript, then if none of them will do it I resort to Kix. In most cases I spend hours figuring out how to make Psh/VBScript do what I could make Kix do in seconds. But that's fine. I've told myself I will develop whatever libraries I need to get PSh/VBScript where Kix is now.

But sadly (for my needs) Powershell and VBScript have three major show-stopping flaws...

Script compilation. Not available in Powershell or VBScript without proprietary third party methods. This is huge for me. I'm not saving any credentials in scripts, but I do a lot of administrative type scripts that access various network locations for config or control files. While I secure this stuff fairly well, it's nice to know that some of our more savvy IT staff cant just look at my source code and glean key directory names or AD group names and see whats happening behind the scenes. Further, script compilation allows more effective use of function libraries.

Include function. No way to do this in VBScript at all...other than a very cumbersome ReadAll() method. Powershell does somewhat have an include (simply call another PS1 file that contains your function) however this requires that the person running the script have read access to your function library. Not cool.

Native INI support. INI is simply put the most simple and effective way to provide configuration data, or input/output any information. Yes, XML is available, but one ReadprofileString() command replaces about 10 lines of VBScript XMLDOM code. Ive written my own INI processing code for VBscript, but without a viable Include function for VB, it's almost impossible to maintain.

Anyway, those are my three big show-stoppers..and ultimately what have me coming back to Kix every time. Anyway...probably not any new information for any of you...just felt like I needed to vent because this is a fairly weekly frustration for me. About 60-70% of my job is scripting. And Kix is just simply the best tool for the job in almost every case...I just wish I knew whether it was going to be around a while longer.



Edited by sixdoubleo (2010-12-17 06:40 PM)

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#201207 - 2010-12-17 07:10 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: sixdoubleo]
Allen Administrator Online   shocked
KiX Supporter
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Registered: 2003-04-19
Posts: 4545
Loc: USA
I've tried to get a hold of Ruud via email once or twice in the past few months, to get him to comment on this kind of stuff... unfortunately, he has not responded to either my emails or any posts here on the forums.

If it's any consolation, I made a number of posts about integrating Powershell with Kix in the Com forums. It's not perfect, but it provides some access to things like .net that we currently do not have.
Com Interface to Powershell

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#201231 - 2010-12-20 02:28 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Allen]
MarkMelanson Offline
Fresh Scripter

Registered: 2006-10-09
Posts: 24
Open Source it. (if possible)

Edited by MarkMelanson (2010-12-20 02:29 PM)

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#201232 - 2010-12-20 03:14 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: MarkMelanson]
Richard H. Administrator Offline
Administrator
*****

Registered: 2000-01-24
Posts: 4946
Loc: Leatherhead, Surrey, UK
 Originally Posted By: MM
Open Source it. (if possible)


It's a nice idea and I've often wished over the years that I could contribute to the codebase to get features moved along.

Quite apart from the developer's desires (and potential issues with his employer - "invention on own time") things like the (de)tokenizing engine code could not made fully public otherwise it would undermine the security provided by tokenisation obfucation of existing scripts.

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#201234 - 2010-12-20 04:27 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Richard H.]
BradV Offline
Seasoned Scripter
****

Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 686
Loc: Maryland, USA
I'm by no means an expert, but I wonder if the tokenization could be based off a PKI certificate? If you have the private key, you can edit the script and save changes. If you have the public key, you can run it?
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#201242 - 2010-12-21 09:02 AM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: BradV]
Richard H. Administrator Offline
Administrator
*****

Registered: 2000-01-24
Posts: 4946
Loc: Leatherhead, Surrey, UK
 Originally Posted By: BradV
If you have the private key, you can edit the script and save changes. If you have the public key, you can run it?


No, that's not really going to work.

The most common uses of tokenisation for are:

1) To protect commercially sensitive code.
2) To hide passwords or similar data.

Now, to be able to "access" the code to execute it you have to be able to revert it to a form that the interpreter understands, in other words it is de-tokenised to a parsed form in memory.

If you have access to the source code all you need to do is add a very simple routine to dump memory to a file once the tokenised code has been parsed. The "de-tokenised" version of code is likely to be ugly but servicable, and of course all strings (such as passwords) are trivial to expose.

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#201701 - 2011-03-04 11:58 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Richard H.]
Lauren Offline
Just in Town

Registered: 2011-02-21
Posts: 2
Loc: California
I have always been a big fan of kixtart, but I think the product is now suffering from the lack of maintenance over the year. Unfortunately I think the time has come, where it can no longer match commercial products like fasttrack scripting host. I think Mark is right - open source it, that is the only chance to get back on track.
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#201702 - 2011-03-05 12:53 AM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Lauren]
ShaneEP Moderator Offline
MM club member
*****

Registered: 2002-11-29
Posts: 2125
Loc: Tulsa, OK
I would agree that there has been a lack of maintenance to kix in recent past. But...Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples of what fast track can do that kix can't (I have no experience with fsh)? I love kix, have used it for roughly 10 years now, and have yet to see a scripting language that is as simple and as powerful.
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#201703 - 2011-03-06 02:23 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: ShaneEP]
Mart Moderator Offline
KiX Supporter
*****

Registered: 2002-03-27
Posts: 4672
Loc: The Netherlands
My two cents are in Shane's basket. I've been using kix for years now and up until now I have been able to do whatever needed to be done with kix. Did some PDF stuff and image resizing that both required external applications (mostly free of costs) but I'm ok with using an external app when it are rare tasks that need to be done. It does not make sense to build everything into kix.

I understand the people saying that it should become open source. I'm sure Ruud has been busy so he was unable to visit us for a long time but I'm sure it is not intentional. Open sourcing it might work but I not fully convinced yet for the same reasons Shane has. I’ve been able to do what I needed to do with kix.
_________________________
Mart

- Chuck Norris once sold ebay to ebay on ebay.

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#201705 - 2011-03-06 04:29 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Mart]
Arend_ Offline
MM club member
*****

Registered: 2005-01-17
Posts: 1894
Loc: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Well, one simple thing would be: .Net integration.
I mean sure we can have Shawn's great Kixforms.net but again we'd have to depend on him for the updates, besides, it only added Forms. I even wrote one myself once, but stopped development because it's all in PowerShell. And the last year I've come to the point where I'm using PowerShell because KiX couln't handle the tasks I needed it to do anymore without .Net functionality.

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#201939 - 2011-04-26 02:55 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Arend_]
Ruud van Velsen Moderator Offline
Developer
*****

Registered: 1999-05-06
Posts: 391
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Hi everyone,

on x64-bit:... hmmm... have to admit that I always tended to think: not useful, as 32-bit KiX runs just fine on x64 Windows. Unless of course, one considers WinPE...

So... if anyone feels it would be worth the effort to create a native x64 version of KiX, please let me know.

Ruud

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#201944 - 2011-04-26 11:50 PM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Ruud van Velsen]
Allen Administrator Online   shocked
KiX Supporter
*****

Registered: 2003-04-19
Posts: 4545
Loc: USA
I can't say I speak for everyone, but like you I've seen kix64 mostly not needed. However, I can definitely see the value for PE and for other things down the road once 32bit apps are put to pasture.

I'd be interested in knowing your thoughts on:
.net integration with kix
compatibility with legacy OSs (specially NT 4 and Win9x) because it appears there are issues with 4.61

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#201946 - 2011-04-27 11:05 AM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Allen]
Ruud van Velsen Moderator Offline
Developer
*****

Registered: 1999-05-06
Posts: 391
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
On legacy OSs: obviously, everybody desparately needs to get away from Win9x/NT4, simply for security reasons. It is not possible to run an OS that old and expect it to not be owned in minutes these days.

Anyway... having said that... I know some people still run Win9x/NT4... and I can't promise anything, but if there are specific issues, I'll be glad to have a look. So if you know of any legacy OS related issues, let me know.

Ruud

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#201947 - 2011-04-27 11:33 AM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: Ruud van Velsen]
BradV Offline
Seasoned Scripter
****

Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 686
Loc: Maryland, USA
How about just stating that in order to move KiXtart forward, support for legacy OSs will be dropped from future releases. If someone still needs to support those OSs, they can use a current or previous release?
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#201948 - 2011-04-27 11:55 AM Re: Future of KiXtart? [Re: BradV]
Mart Moderator Offline
KiX Supporter
*****

Registered: 2002-03-27
Posts: 4672
Loc: The Netherlands
My two cents are in your basket Brad.
We only support WinXP (for now) and Win7, Win2K3 and Win2K8. We have three Win2K servers but they will be retired in the near future.
_________________________
Mart

- Chuck Norris once sold ebay to ebay on ebay.

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