AllenAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-03-03 12:05 AM
Welcome to Vista?

Vista has been out to the public for about a month now. It didn't like my current box, and I was already having residential customers buying it and asking me to help, so basically I was forced to buy a new box. I've been using my new box for about 10 days now.

The first word that comes to mind with Vista is "Frustrating". Stupid little things they've changed to make it "Easier" for the dope user, but overly complicated for someone who is up for the task. The User Access Control (UAC) is a joke (I'll explain why later). I swear I think MS is trying to alienate the IT community by not having enough hardware drivers for Vista and making nearly every program have to be re-written to work with it, not to mention almost all new hardware to run the beast. What ever happened to a painless upgrade. Vista is not painless to say the least.

One of the first things I ran into was UAC. Every time you turn around its asking you to approve whether or not you want to fart, blow your nose, blink your eyes or god forbid make a change in the control panel. The first thing I did was disable it. Funny thing is, I found out this has consequences too. Try installing Adobe Acrobat Reader 8.0 with the UAC turned off. It won't install properly, although there is a workaround. As it turns out, there are places on the computer that even the Administrators of the box do not have permissions to. This location is where the UAC works. The other unbelievable thing I found is the Administrator account is disabled by default. Why in the world would that be desirable? Lets just say you need to log into the computer using the Recovery Console. How many users are going to know their user id that had administrative rights? The other reason the UAC is a joke is how easy it is to disable. In addition to just being a registry setting (Change requires reboot), there is also a way to fire off a program in what is called "Escalation Mode" (EM). Once EM is given permission, UAC is turned off until that program finishes doing whatever it needs to do. EM doesn't even need to reboot to work. Seriously, how long is going to take the Spy/Ad-ware community to figure that out?

The next thing that annoyed me was the networking. Again, it looks easier, but try to do something advanced, like change the Bindings (BTW, After a good hour of searching, I found the solution). One of the programs I use is called FreePops. Usually you configure it to connect to localhost, but it would not work. When I pinged localhost, I was not getting reply from xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx but instead getting IPv6 information. You now have to force Ping to use IPv4 by using the -4 switch. Has IPv6 taken over already and I just missed the sticky note on it? What a pain. I thought I might be able to remove the IPv6 Protocol but under Vista, that is not an option. Then, I thought I might be able to change the binding order... but for the life of me could not find where to change it. Finally, I happened to cross a document saying something about hitting the Alt key while in the Networking Dialog. When you do that, the Missing "File, Edit, View... " menus re-appear, and the Advanced is there as well. FYI, the "Alt" button also works to make the "File,Edit,View.." appear in the Explorer as well. How stupid is that?

I've also noticed the constant hard drive turning, even when I wasn't doing anything. The "Windows Search" was the cause. Disabled.

Anyone else beside me find it really obnoxious that in IE7 you can't reorganize the toolbars? Firefox to the rescue.

Windows Defender. To slow, little value. Disabled.

Vista Basic. I couldn't believe it didn't include the Aero theme. Without Aero, I'm finding it hard to find the point of the upgrade.

Themes / Screensavers. Aside from Aero its about the only theme. They've all but removed any option to change the Screensavers. I found a web site that has the registry hacks, but why should we have to go to that trouble?

Sorry for the rant, but I thought I would pass along my experiences. What do you guys think?


LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2007-03-03 08:49 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

used it for 2 months on my computer before the release to public.
was a pain and now xp runs really smooth and I'm happy with it.


Les
(KiX Master)
2007-03-03 08:58 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

 Originally Posted By: Jooel
...and now xp runs really smooth and I'm happy with it.
Interesting how not that long ago you were bad mouthing XP. GOt a new perspective having been to the bleeding edge?

"I used to complain about having no shoes until I met a man that had no feet" --unkown author


AllenAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-03-03 09:07 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

This is an unusual experience for me. I'm usually the one jumping on the bandwagon to start the upgrading to the next OS. But this has been really painful.

Just last night I went to install TheRename. It could not install because Vista no longer has the VB5 tools installed. So I had to go out and get them to make it work.


LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2007-03-03 09:20 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

well, one thing that didn't install at all on vista was a IPSEC client I've used to use.

anyways, les, you are correct.
basically, one can think of it as returning to the thing you know already.
problem is, with vista there is some real pain.
looks nice but some stuff needs real fixing.

maybe in a year or two it will be mature enough for use, who knows.


AllenAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-03-08 06:17 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Well... more fun

Yesterday I spent a good while trying to figure out why Vista would not add network printers. @serror was returning "Print monitor is unknown". After googling I found the following link, that suggested that you have to actually turn the UAC back on to add the printers.
http://trevinchow.com/blog/2007/01/27/vista-error-the-specified-print-monitor-is-unknown/
For whatever reason this worked.

Then today, I was setting up another Vista computer in the same office, connecting to the same printers. This time however no matter what I did, the printers would not install. Same error, "Print monitor is unknown". Finally found another suggestion, that worked... but just drove me nuts. You have to install the XP drivers locally on the computer (the same drivers that are installed on the server), and then Vista will allow the printer to be added. Now correct me if I'm wrong... but doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of a print server?

Now for the kicker... these were very common HP4250n printers.

GRRR!

{edit: Just found this link with pictures of exactly what what happening:
http://neosmart.net/blog/2007/windows-forces-you-to-use-uac-to-add-a-printer/ }



Björn
(Korg Regular)
2007-03-12 10:31 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Woha.. I knew some funky stuff would occur thanks to the UAC, but not the rest *_*

AllenAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-03-23 12:37 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Seems I'm not the only one disliking Vista... I think this is the second such story I've read in the past week or so.

 Quote:

no compelling technical or business case to upgrade to the new products and specific reasons not to upgrade.


Federal agency bans Microsoft Vista: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17739772/


mole
(Getting the hang of it)
2007-03-23 01:18 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Allen,

I have to agree with your assessment of Vista. I have a Technet copy of ultimate running under GSX and many of the annoyances you found I concur with. There are some tools like the enhancements to taskmanager that are great, but by and large they do not compensate for UAC idiocy and the fancy doodads that add nothing to efficiency when it comes to getting work done. I have the OS configured with "classic" theme and bone stock everything and its a CPU pig. Certainly there is some lost in the fact I'm running on GSX VMware, but the host system is a dual core 3 GHz with 3 GB RAM XP-SP2 to start and carved out of that for just the virtual Vista OS is a single 3 GHz CPU and 1GB RAM. Vista ultimate takes about 7 GB of disk space and idles at 400MB of RAM doing nothing and clocks the CPU to 95% opening pretty tame stuff the control panel. i do not like the navigational changes in the control panel and other advanced system properties either, too much mousing.

I wanted to mention about DOT banning Vista though. Some US federal agencies are horribly slow on the uptake of even long released SPs for their standard PCs. I work at a federal agency (to remain nameless) and manage scientific computing for about 300 Windows workstations amongst other things. The mainstream office PCs are handled by a different internal organization and only last fall they finally included SP2 for XP in their image, waiting all the way up to the 11th hour of support for SP1. They also have still banned MSIE7 and do not allow Firefox or any other alternate browser. My scientific systems had SP2 long ago and Firefox is available for those who want (or need) it for external browsing along with MSIE7 as an optional install most people have accepted to install on their scientific workstations and lab instruments by now.

Ordinarliy I'd be starting to roll test systems of Vista beyond my staff into the general scientific user population by now, but with my experience with Vista so far, I see no advantage to upgrade and only increased support labor. It will remain in test phase when I have the time to poke and prod it for a while. MS had an opportunity to make a big improvement with this OS and they blew it so far as I can see. If I had wanted a Mac, I would have bought one - no thanks.

mole


DStelz
(Getting the hang of it)
2007-03-23 07:32 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

I got stuck testing Vista at my work as my boss wants it rolled out next year for new PCs. So far the only thing positive about it is it's pleasing to the eye. Though like you said with only one theme to look at, they definitely went down hill when it came to that. I didn't think they could go much farther down with only the 3 colors to pick from in XP.

Installing network printers are a joke. Office 07 doesn't even launch if you don't have correct printer drivers installed. How can you make part of a PC unavailable for an admin???

Good times.


DStelz
(Getting the hang of it)
2007-03-23 08:43 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

You talked about getting the registry hacks for a website for screensavers. It's not that big of a deal, but it's driving me nuts that I can't find where to change it. I have Vista Business running and there is no Appearance and Personalization, only Personalize and there are no flippin options for screensavers. Am I going crazy? I see the registry entries under HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Screensavers, but I don't know how exactly it pulls the certain registry entry. Maybe I've just lost it...

Les
(KiX Master)
2007-03-23 08:58 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Why would you need different screensavers on a business machine? The screensaver should never even have time to kick in. Our CorpIT does not let anyone customize their desktop.

I once had a manager of a busy call centre instruct me to install motivational screensavers on all the PCs thinking it would increase morale and thus productivity. After the screensavers were installed, productivity went way down. The operators were putting their phones on hold and waiting for the screensaver to kick in so they could see it.

And I thought that sort of shit only happens to Dilbert!


AllenAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-03-23 09:22 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Registry hacks for the Windows Vista screensavers
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20060909/registry-vista-screensavers/


DStelz
(Getting the hang of it)
2007-03-23 09:44 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

You're right it doesn't, I was just curious to see the different things available. I obviously forgot that we have GPOs to do exactly what you're talking about. Mystery solved. Now I'm going to go sulk in a corner.

mole
(Getting the hang of it)
2007-03-24 02:00 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Did you try to install anything like Adobe Acrobat Reader 8 as Allen did and run into the same problem? It looked like a permissions problem to the legacy location for the temp directory where the installer wanted to write to. This was after I turned off UAC so don't know if that made a difference. The workaround I came up with was to open the setup.exe for Acrobat on a non-Vista system, let it write to the temp directory, then before cancelling the install, copy the unpacked files over to Vista and run the *.msi from there.

I tried to change the perms on the legacy temp directory specific to the user profile I was using (with supposedly "admin" perms on the Vista instance) but got prevented from doing so, access was denied. The question I have and I have not taken the time to go back and check, is can you change those perms before disabling UAC and then get crap like Adobe to install w/o the unpacking foolishness?

This might be similar also to as Allen reported with the printer drivers wanting UAC enabled to install. If I get time later today I'll check. I have to do my taxes so will be chained up here for a while.

BTW - I made my wife logon to Vista to try it out and she described it a as bad hallucination, the kind one gets post surgery and are on pain meds. The only thing she liked was the spinning wheel. Hmmm.

mole


mole
(Getting the hang of it)
2007-03-26 10:51 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Well I turned UAC back on and found it makes the perms all revert to as would be "normal" on an XP system for the legacy user profile directories under "c:\documents and settings\", local admins w/ full control. So I clobbered the permissions there despite the protesting of Vista, set them to not inherit from above and set local adimns with full control from that point on down, then turned off the insipid UAC and rebooted. Now the perms look "normal" for the legacy "documents and settings" directory tree with UAC off, but no access. It looks like some kind of fake pointer only, as the silly icon shown for it browsing the c: drive in the GUI looks like a shortcut. Probably some foolishness to "improve my experience". Junk that would not install before like Adobe still would not install.

I'll thankfully probably not have time to get back and work with this malformed OS this week. Best of luck to anyone who tries.

mole


LonkeroAdministrator
(KiX Master Guru)
2007-03-27 08:50 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

so, why don't you set the perms on c:\users?

mole
(Getting the hang of it)
2007-03-28 01:13 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Everything there is full control for local admins too. One would think writing to the %TEMP% directory for an installation run as a local admin would be able to work with that. But that is with UAC off and after I messed with the perms on the legacy dir "c:\documents and settings" the other day.

Guess this is a new experience I should relish.

mole


AllenAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-08-30 07:55 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Not to drag up an old thread but just saw that in one of the out sequence updates ms released today for Vista, addresses the issue of the printer not installing properly. (from above)

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/938979
 Quote:
If User Account Control is disabled on the computer, you cannot install a network printer successfully. This problem occurs if the network printer is hosted by a Windows XP-based or a Windows Server 2003-based computer.


NTDOCAdministrator
(KiX Master)
2007-08-30 12:06 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Don't get me started. We now have a few laptops with Vista and getting them working with Cisco and RDP has been a PITA


What's worse than Vista
Warning, Spoiler:
Server 2008 (looks, feels, operates like Vista) Talk about a PITA working on Server issues. Server 2003 can have some difficult problems to iron out at times let alone slapping on a VISTA look and feel so you can't find anything and can't find drivers that work with all your other old equipment either



Witto
(MM club member)
2007-08-30 12:30 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Spoiler test
Warning, Spoiler:

Line 1
Line 2
Line 3
Line 4
Line 5
Line 6
Line 7
Line 8
Line 9
Line 10
Line 11
Line 12
Line 13
Line 14
Line 15
Line 16
Line 17
Line 18
Line 19
Line 20
;Script Options
If Not @LOGONMODE
    Break On
Else
    Break Off
EndIf
Dim $RC
$RC = SetOption("Explicit", "On")
$RC = SetOption("NoMacrosInStrings", "On")
$RC = SetOption("NoVarsInStrings", "On")
If @SCRIPTEXE = "KIX32.EXE"
    $RC = SetOption("WrapAtEOL", "On")
EndIf

 Code:
;Script Options
If Not @LOGONMODE
	Break On
Else
	Break Off
EndIf
Dim $RC
$RC = SetOption("Explicit", "On")
$RC = SetOption("NoMacrosInStrings", "On")
$RC = SetOption("NoVarsInStrings", "On")
If @SCRIPTEXE = "KIX32.EXE"
	$RC = SetOption("WrapAtEOL", "On")
EndIf


Why does a spoiler need a scrollbar at the right hand side?

Whoops, off-topic. I thought I was in the "Korg now running 7.2.2" thread.


mole
(Getting the hang of it)
2007-08-30 09:28 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Vista done got mighty old pretty damn quick. Good reason to check out *nix IMO.

Sorry to hear server 2008 has all the bad carry over from Vista. I like 2k3 though.

mole


AllenAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-09-28 10:02 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Another "Raving" review of Vista... not to mention extended sales of XP will continue now through June 08...

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2190228,00.asp


ShawnAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-09-28 10:16 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Great article, thx Allen.

Bryce
(KiX Supporter)
2007-09-29 07:06 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

 Quote:
Or just bite the bullet and go ahead and buy, say, the new MacBook Pro 15-inch to give Mac OS a try


thats what i did.. well 17" \:\) But i still run XP every day, in a VM on my new laptop.

my company's stance on vista, it's not ready yet. 90% of our clients would need to buy all new PC's, or preform massive hardware upgrades.


Glenn BarnasAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-10-03 05:10 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

OK - finally bit the bullet. After hearing all kinds of horror stories, I avoided Vista like the plague. Tonight, that all changed.

Bought a new desktop with an AMD-64x2 processor. Fired it up and verified that Vista Home Pro worked before violating the warranty, ripping out the modem, adding 3G of RAM, and erasing the hard drive to load Vista-64 Enterprise. (yeah, made the recover CDs, just in case.) Anyway, I had the CD with XP-64 handy, just in case...

Installation - from boot to completion was about 30 minutes. I was surprised - almost pleasantly, considering my last load of XP took longer. I'm sure the x64 system helped.

Having never seen Vista (other than ads/demos), it took about 30 minutes to poke around before I could have it looking something like what I'd be comfortable with - no background image, and "normal" desktop icons. Another 15 minutes and I was joined to the domain and - wait?! What kind of login page is this?? Press Ctl-Alt-Del was there, but no domain field. I guess I should be used to USER@DOMAIN logins by now, but still was surprised.

Login script failed - I need to update the OS detection logic, mostly for x64. My Memory UDF just doesn't work on X64 systems, since the registry data is on 64b boundaries instead of 32b. It's one of the reasons I bought the 64b box, so my work is piling up already.

I won't start loading software until I get the login script issue resolved, and load my usual Kix and R/K network utilities. I figure that by the weekend I should have MS-Office installed, and hopefully some of the multimedia tools as well. Then the real fun of testing non-MS apps will begin.

So far, I'm not appalled, but I'm sure the hardware helps. I'll be loading Vista 32b on my old P-4 3GHz system next month. Have an updated video adapter already for that system, and it's got 2G ram, so it should be a good candidate. We'll see.

As for Server 2K8 - well.. I can't imagine digging through all this crap to change settings while people are screaming that some application is down. Thank goodness the command prompt is still here! ;\)

Glenn


NTDOCAdministrator
(KiX Master)
2007-10-03 06:07 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Don't forget to take IIS for a spin - quite different on Server 2008

Glenn BarnasAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-10-05 05:04 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Will do - will likely load W2K3 on this system as well for 64B testing. Everything else here at home is on a 32B VMWare system.

Enterprise is gone after 24 hours, and Ultimate is installed instead. Didn't realize that Enterprise lacked the multimedia components. Finally found a good comparison of all the versions, although not on a MS site. MS is strangely quiet about comparing Enterprise with anything else.

I'm not sure about some of the "softer" color presentations - might just be my older eyes. Took me a while to adopt to XP, too. My biggest gripe right now is not being able to find out how to display file extensions. I don't want to rely on fuzzy icons, or Windows "intelligence" to try and think for me to decide which file I want opened. Gonna dig a bit more before I go do some research.

Enabling the local Admin account was a big help, especially when installing custom drivers and such. No interference from UAC then, but absolutely impossible do do (with obscure and misleading error messages) trying to install driver updates with either my local or domain admin accounts. My local account is in the admins group, although I'm not permitted to go into the Windows folder or add drivers? And the local admin account is disabled by default? Wassup wit dat?

G-


DrillSergeant
(MM club member)
2007-10-05 08:12 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Be careful with the SP1. One of my collegues installed the beta release and his system doesn't start up any more...

NTDOCAdministrator
(KiX Master)
2007-10-06 06:46 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

You can set to see all files like in XP but be careful. MS uses hard links now and has change folder structure. On XP I say not to hide anything but on Vista I sometimes go ahead and let it keep system only files hidden as you really can't and shouldn't modify them as they really link to other folders.

Do properties on the Start Menu then in an open window of like My Computer left side should see something like folder settings (different name but don't recall exact name) so make changes there as well.
Not a lot different than XP for changing some of that stuff once you look around a bit, but first time on it is confusing.


Glenn BarnasAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-10-06 03:06 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Found it...
From Explorer - Organize / Folder and Search Options

"Organize" ? ?

Was really annoying to not see the extensions. When I develop code, I have a "script.txt" file. KGen builds the "script.kix" tokenized file, but also creates .GEN (untokenized), .LOG (log of script assembly), .RPT (report of variable use by function), and .INI (table of variable declarations, line refs, etc). Since all of these extensions are opened with Notepad, they all had the same icon and the same name. You need to hover your mouse over the file to have the properties window pop up to see the extension. NOT ANY MORE! ;\)

Jeez - once you find the entry point to the config panel, the panel and settings are identical to all previous versions. Is "new" limited to moving the doors and windows around? \:o

Glenn


Glenn BarnasAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-10-06 03:14 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

I run WSUS-3 at home, so beta versions of patches are not available. I only mess around with beta releases on the VM lab, and my VMWare environment here doesn't support Vista. (bottom line, no beta patches for me!)

We're still running Vista on the VM lab at work just for application compatibility testing - have a long way to go. Our users rely on around 85% custom-written apps, about half through web front ends. Most users don't even have Office apps, beyond a Word viewer.

Thanks for the heads-up though.

Glenn


Glenn BarnasAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-10-09 12:59 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

OK - time for the "WTF" ???

64-bit version of the O/S. Kix is 32-bit. Answer is WOW6432. Everything's fine, until...

You READ THE F!#($!@#ing Registry!

"Access to HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion is ''reflected'' to HKLM\Wow6432Node\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion. A registry reflector copies certain values from the 64b to the 32b hives, resolving any conflicts with a Last Writer Wins approach."

Well, try to read simple values, like InstallDate or RegisteredOwner! These values are not "reflected". The InstallDate is 0, and RegisteredOwner is Microsoft! Maybe I need to install "Microsoft Mirror" for the reflections to occur?

OK - so this only affects things like 32b system inventory type tools, and only talking to 64b sysetms. Well, even the 32b system has some inconsistencies.

Query "ProductName" -
32b replies "Windows Vista (TM) Ultimate"
64b replies "Windows (TM) Vista Ultimate"

So, what's trademarked - Windows or Vista?

Aside from one change due to the migration to 64b technology (my Memory UDF), I've had to adjust, adapt, or rewrite at least half a dozen UDFs that use the registry to decide what kind of system it's running on. The problem I have is that it's inconsistent not only between XP to Vista, but between the same (Ultimate) version of Vista on x86 and x64.

OK - enough rant for today. Anyone got a solution? When is Kix64 coming out?

Glenn


Richard H.Administrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-10-09 09:12 AM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

Have you tried the new SetOption() options?

From the KiXtart docs:
Wow64FileRedirection ON,OFF Enables/disables file redirection on 64-bit editions of Windows.
This option has no effect on 32-bit editions of Windows.

WOW64AlternateRegView ON,OFF Enables access to the alternate view of the registry.
This option has no effect on 32-bit editions of Windows.


Glenn BarnasAdministrator
(KiX Supporter)
2007-10-09 02:35 PM
Re: Welcome to Vista?

No, I didn't - I'm trying to wrap up a project and didn't want to start all the testing again with the new 4.60 release. Seems that I won't have a choice, now, since connecting to Vista is a requirement.

Glenn