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#174433 - 2007-03-03 12:05 AM Welcome to Vista?
Allen Administrator Online   shocked
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Vista has been out to the public for about a month now. It didn't like my current box, and I was already having residential customers buying it and asking me to help, so basically I was forced to buy a new box. I've been using my new box for about 10 days now.

The first word that comes to mind with Vista is "Frustrating". Stupid little things they've changed to make it "Easier" for the dope user, but overly complicated for someone who is up for the task. The User Access Control (UAC) is a joke (I'll explain why later). I swear I think MS is trying to alienate the IT community by not having enough hardware drivers for Vista and making nearly every program have to be re-written to work with it, not to mention almost all new hardware to run the beast. What ever happened to a painless upgrade. Vista is not painless to say the least.

One of the first things I ran into was UAC. Every time you turn around its asking you to approve whether or not you want to fart, blow your nose, blink your eyes or god forbid make a change in the control panel. The first thing I did was disable it. Funny thing is, I found out this has consequences too. Try installing Adobe Acrobat Reader 8.0 with the UAC turned off. It won't install properly, although there is a workaround. As it turns out, there are places on the computer that even the Administrators of the box do not have permissions to. This location is where the UAC works. The other unbelievable thing I found is the Administrator account is disabled by default. Why in the world would that be desirable? Lets just say you need to log into the computer using the Recovery Console. How many users are going to know their user id that had administrative rights? The other reason the UAC is a joke is how easy it is to disable. In addition to just being a registry setting (Change requires reboot), there is also a way to fire off a program in what is called "Escalation Mode" (EM). Once EM is given permission, UAC is turned off until that program finishes doing whatever it needs to do. EM doesn't even need to reboot to work. Seriously, how long is going to take the Spy/Ad-ware community to figure that out?

The next thing that annoyed me was the networking. Again, it looks easier, but try to do something advanced, like change the Bindings (BTW, After a good hour of searching, I found the solution). One of the programs I use is called FreePops. Usually you configure it to connect to localhost, but it would not work. When I pinged localhost, I was not getting reply from xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx but instead getting IPv6 information. You now have to force Ping to use IPv4 by using the -4 switch. Has IPv6 taken over already and I just missed the sticky note on it? What a pain. I thought I might be able to remove the IPv6 Protocol but under Vista, that is not an option. Then, I thought I might be able to change the binding order... but for the life of me could not find where to change it. Finally, I happened to cross a document saying something about hitting the Alt key while in the Networking Dialog. When you do that, the Missing "File, Edit, View... " menus re-appear, and the Advanced is there as well. FYI, the "Alt" button also works to make the "File,Edit,View.." appear in the Explorer as well. How stupid is that?

I've also noticed the constant hard drive turning, even when I wasn't doing anything. The "Windows Search" was the cause. Disabled.

Anyone else beside me find it really obnoxious that in IE7 you can't reorganize the toolbars? Firefox to the rescue.

Windows Defender. To slow, little value. Disabled.

Vista Basic. I couldn't believe it didn't include the Aero theme. Without Aero, I'm finding it hard to find the point of the upgrade.

Themes / Screensavers. Aside from Aero its about the only theme. They've all but removed any option to change the Screensavers. I found a web site that has the registry hacks, but why should we have to go to that trouble?

Sorry for the rant, but I thought I would pass along my experiences. What do you guys think?

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#174446 - 2007-03-03 08:49 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Allen]
Lonkero Administrator Offline
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used it for 2 months on my computer before the release to public.
was a pain and now xp runs really smooth and I'm happy with it.
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#174447 - 2007-03-03 08:58 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Lonkero]
Les Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Jooel
...and now xp runs really smooth and I'm happy with it.
Interesting how not that long ago you were bad mouthing XP. GOt a new perspective having been to the bleeding edge?

"I used to complain about having no shoes until I met a man that had no feet" --unkown author
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#174448 - 2007-03-03 09:07 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Les]
Allen Administrator Online   shocked
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This is an unusual experience for me. I'm usually the one jumping on the bandwagon to start the upgrading to the next OS. But this has been really painful.

Just last night I went to install TheRename. It could not install because Vista no longer has the VB5 tools installed. So I had to go out and get them to make it work.

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#174449 - 2007-03-03 09:20 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Allen]
Lonkero Administrator Offline
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well, one thing that didn't install at all on vista was a IPSEC client I've used to use.

anyways, les, you are correct.
basically, one can think of it as returning to the thing you know already.
problem is, with vista there is some real pain.
looks nice but some stuff needs real fixing.

maybe in a year or two it will be mature enough for use, who knows.
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#174577 - 2007-03-08 06:17 AM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Lonkero]
Allen Administrator Online   shocked
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Well... more fun

Yesterday I spent a good while trying to figure out why Vista would not add network printers. @serror was returning "Print monitor is unknown". After googling I found the following link, that suggested that you have to actually turn the UAC back on to add the printers.
http://trevinchow.com/blog/2007/01/27/vista-error-the-specified-print-monitor-is-unknown/
For whatever reason this worked.

Then today, I was setting up another Vista computer in the same office, connecting to the same printers. This time however no matter what I did, the printers would not install. Same error, "Print monitor is unknown". Finally found another suggestion, that worked... but just drove me nuts. You have to install the XP drivers locally on the computer (the same drivers that are installed on the server), and then Vista will allow the printer to be added. Now correct me if I'm wrong... but doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of a print server?

Now for the kicker... these were very common HP4250n printers.

GRRR!

{edit: Just found this link with pictures of exactly what what happening:
http://neosmart.net/blog/2007/windows-forces-you-to-use-uac-to-add-a-printer/ }



Edited by Allen (2007-03-08 06:25 AM)

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#174619 - 2007-03-12 10:31 AM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Allen]
Björn Offline
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Woha.. I knew some funky stuff would occur thanks to the UAC, but not the rest *_*
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#174903 - 2007-03-23 12:37 AM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Björn]
Allen Administrator Online   shocked
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Seems I'm not the only one disliking Vista... I think this is the second such story I've read in the past week or so.

 Quote:

no compelling technical or business case to upgrade to the new products and specific reasons not to upgrade.


Federal agency bans Microsoft Vista: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17739772/

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#174904 - 2007-03-23 01:18 AM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Allen]
mole Online   mad
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Allen,

I have to agree with your assessment of Vista. I have a Technet copy of ultimate running under GSX and many of the annoyances you found I concur with. There are some tools like the enhancements to taskmanager that are great, but by and large they do not compensate for UAC idiocy and the fancy doodads that add nothing to efficiency when it comes to getting work done. I have the OS configured with "classic" theme and bone stock everything and its a CPU pig. Certainly there is some lost in the fact I'm running on GSX VMware, but the host system is a dual core 3 GHz with 3 GB RAM XP-SP2 to start and carved out of that for just the virtual Vista OS is a single 3 GHz CPU and 1GB RAM. Vista ultimate takes about 7 GB of disk space and idles at 400MB of RAM doing nothing and clocks the CPU to 95% opening pretty tame stuff the control panel. i do not like the navigational changes in the control panel and other advanced system properties either, too much mousing.

I wanted to mention about DOT banning Vista though. Some US federal agencies are horribly slow on the uptake of even long released SPs for their standard PCs. I work at a federal agency (to remain nameless) and manage scientific computing for about 300 Windows workstations amongst other things. The mainstream office PCs are handled by a different internal organization and only last fall they finally included SP2 for XP in their image, waiting all the way up to the 11th hour of support for SP1. They also have still banned MSIE7 and do not allow Firefox or any other alternate browser. My scientific systems had SP2 long ago and Firefox is available for those who want (or need) it for external browsing along with MSIE7 as an optional install most people have accepted to install on their scientific workstations and lab instruments by now.

Ordinarliy I'd be starting to roll test systems of Vista beyond my staff into the general scientific user population by now, but with my experience with Vista so far, I see no advantage to upgrade and only increased support labor. It will remain in test phase when I have the time to poke and prod it for a while. MS had an opportunity to make a big improvement with this OS and they blew it so far as I can see. If I had wanted a Mac, I would have bought one - no thanks.

mole
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#174924 - 2007-03-23 07:32 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: mole]
DStelz Offline
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I got stuck testing Vista at my work as my boss wants it rolled out next year for new PCs. So far the only thing positive about it is it's pleasing to the eye. Though like you said with only one theme to look at, they definitely went down hill when it came to that. I didn't think they could go much farther down with only the 3 colors to pick from in XP.

Installing network printers are a joke. Office 07 doesn't even launch if you don't have correct printer drivers installed. How can you make part of a PC unavailable for an admin???

Good times.

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#174927 - 2007-03-23 08:43 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: DStelz]
DStelz Offline
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You talked about getting the registry hacks for a website for screensavers. It's not that big of a deal, but it's driving me nuts that I can't find where to change it. I have Vista Business running and there is no Appearance and Personalization, only Personalize and there are no flippin options for screensavers. Am I going crazy? I see the registry entries under HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Screensavers, but I don't know how exactly it pulls the certain registry entry. Maybe I've just lost it...
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#174928 - 2007-03-23 08:58 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: DStelz]
Les Offline
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Why would you need different screensavers on a business machine? The screensaver should never even have time to kick in. Our CorpIT does not let anyone customize their desktop.

I once had a manager of a busy call centre instruct me to install motivational screensavers on all the PCs thinking it would increase morale and thus productivity. After the screensavers were installed, productivity went way down. The operators were putting their phones on hold and waiting for the screensaver to kick in so they could see it.

And I thought that sort of shit only happens to Dilbert!
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#174931 - 2007-03-23 09:22 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: DStelz]
Allen Administrator Online   shocked
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Registry hacks for the Windows Vista screensavers
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20060909/registry-vista-screensavers/

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#174933 - 2007-03-23 09:44 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Les]
DStelz Offline
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Loc: Green Bay, WI
You're right it doesn't, I was just curious to see the different things available. I obviously forgot that we have GPOs to do exactly what you're talking about. Mystery solved. Now I'm going to go sulk in a corner.
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#174936 - 2007-03-24 02:00 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: DStelz]
mole Online   mad
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Did you try to install anything like Adobe Acrobat Reader 8 as Allen did and run into the same problem? It looked like a permissions problem to the legacy location for the temp directory where the installer wanted to write to. This was after I turned off UAC so don't know if that made a difference. The workaround I came up with was to open the setup.exe for Acrobat on a non-Vista system, let it write to the temp directory, then before cancelling the install, copy the unpacked files over to Vista and run the *.msi from there.

I tried to change the perms on the legacy temp directory specific to the user profile I was using (with supposedly "admin" perms on the Vista instance) but got prevented from doing so, access was denied. The question I have and I have not taken the time to go back and check, is can you change those perms before disabling UAC and then get crap like Adobe to install w/o the unpacking foolishness?

This might be similar also to as Allen reported with the printer drivers wanting UAC enabled to install. If I get time later today I'll check. I have to do my taxes so will be chained up here for a while.

BTW - I made my wife logon to Vista to try it out and she described it a as bad hallucination, the kind one gets post surgery and are on pain meds. The only thing she liked was the spinning wheel. Hmmm.

mole
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#174980 - 2007-03-26 10:51 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: mole]
mole Online   mad
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Well I turned UAC back on and found it makes the perms all revert to as would be "normal" on an XP system for the legacy user profile directories under "c:\documents and settings\", local admins w/ full control. So I clobbered the permissions there despite the protesting of Vista, set them to not inherit from above and set local adimns with full control from that point on down, then turned off the insipid UAC and rebooted. Now the perms look "normal" for the legacy "documents and settings" directory tree with UAC off, but no access. It looks like some kind of fake pointer only, as the silly icon shown for it browsing the c: drive in the GUI looks like a shortcut. Probably some foolishness to "improve my experience". Junk that would not install before like Adobe still would not install.

I'll thankfully probably not have time to get back and work with this malformed OS this week. Best of luck to anyone who tries.

mole
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#175003 - 2007-03-27 08:50 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: mole]
Lonkero Administrator Offline
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so, why don't you set the perms on c:\users?
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#175016 - 2007-03-28 01:13 AM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Lonkero]
mole Online   mad
Getting the hang of it

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Everything there is full control for local admins too. One would think writing to the %TEMP% directory for an installation run as a local admin would be able to work with that. But that is with UAC off and after I messed with the perms on the legacy dir "c:\documents and settings" the other day.

Guess this is a new experience I should relish.

mole
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#179962 - 2007-08-30 07:55 AM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: mole]
Allen Administrator Online   shocked
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Not to drag up an old thread but just saw that in one of the out sequence updates ms released today for Vista, addresses the issue of the printer not installing properly. (from above)

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/938979
 Quote:
If User Account Control is disabled on the computer, you cannot install a network printer successfully. This problem occurs if the network printer is hosted by a Windows XP-based or a Windows Server 2003-based computer.

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#179973 - 2007-08-30 12:06 PM Re: Welcome to Vista? [Re: Allen]
NTDOC Administrator Offline
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Don't get me started. We now have a few laptops with Vista and getting them working with Cisco and RDP has been a PITA


What's worse than Vista
Warning, Spoiler:
Server 2008 (looks, feels, operates like Vista) Talk about a PITA working on Server issues. Server 2003 can have some difficult problems to iron out at times let alone slapping on a VISTA look and feel so you can't find anything and can't find drivers that work with all your other old equipment either


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